Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network-Another NRA Style RKBA Trojan Horse????

(Update #3 12/08/13 Readers should note the extensive discussion in the comments section about Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network from Rob Pincus et. al.)

The 2nd Amendment has apparently reached that point in it’s long torturous history where the time has come to send in the clowns, uh….. lawyers.

Over on Michael Bane’s Downrange TV Blog, Rob Pincus recommended the services of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network to his readers.

Click Link Here:

On the surface this organization would appear to be a long overdue development.

Click Link Here:

Unfortunately for me, I first heard of the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network over year ago when a flame war erupted on an obscure Gmane Concealed Carry Message board about the nature and purpose of said Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

Now to say there are flame wars on the Internet is akin to the observation there is snow in Antarctica.

What distinguished this particular flamewar was the unilateral assault launched by a poster who signed himself as “Dave Workman” (presumably???) of Second Amendment Foundation fame.

I have been unable to find any evidence it was not, in fact, Dave Workman of SAF.

Apologies in advance to the real Dave Workman if he was NOT the poster on this message board.

The second distinguishing feature of this flamewar was the overwhelmingly familiar flavor of the assault, to wit: Dave Workman in his initial post has his facts completely wrong and uses the incorrect facts to segue into an unbelievably personal attack on a relatively innocuous criticism.

And it went downhill from there!

What could have been a reasonably enlightened discussion about the merits of a new organization became a spitting match between adults (????) who should have been able to conduct themselves with more dignity.

Where have We, the People, seen this technique used ad nauseum?

Short answer long: Whenever anyone has publicly criticized the NRA, their methods,their tactics or their philosophy, a veritable army of deniers emerges from the woodwork to browbeat critics into near total silence.

Which is exactly what happened in the Great GMane Concealed Carry Poo Flinging Contest -the inept critic was surrounded and eventually banned from the message board without ever approaching within a hundred yards of the original observation he/she posed for consideration by the group.

What was this tumultuous observation you may ask? Perhaps it is best to let the combatants speak for themselves.

Here is the original post from the poster of the 1st part:

Click Link:
From: cohodas
Subject: After a self-defense shooting, where do you get legal help?
Newsgroups: gmane.culture.hobbies.guns.concealed
Date: 2008-04-12 03:09:34 GMT (45 weeks, 5 days and 19 minutes ago)

I came across this website today.


And here is the original rebuttal from the poster of the 2nd Part:

From: handyone_tjk
Subject: Re: After a self-defense shooting, where do you get legal help?
Newsgroups: gmane.culture.hobbies.guns.concealed
Date: 2008-04-12 20:36:07 GMT (45 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours and 53 minutes ago)

BZZZZZT! The only good gunowner is a CCW Licensee. The only good self defense shooting is a CCW self defense shooting.

Another gungrabber dot org in RKBA clothing.

I’ll pass, many thanks anyway.


And here is the original post from the Poster Known as Dave Workman as he wades into the fray:

From: Dave Workman
Subject: RE: Re: After a self-defense shooting, where do you get legal help?
Newsgroups: gmane.culture.hobbies.guns.concealed
Date: 2008-04-15 17:11:41 GMT (45 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours and 19 minutes ago)

Well, BZZZZT right back at you. What on earth prompted this reaction? These guys don’t give a hoot whether you have a CPL or not. I believe I know one of the principles involved and he is hardly a “gun grabber.”

This rant is like so many I see these days from people who just have to believe in some kind of conspiracy. We have enough real enemies that we don’t have to imagine any. Americans for Gun Safety, American Hunters and Shooters Assn,., the Joyce Foundation, Rosie, George Soros…these are the real enemy.

If a group of attorneys is forming to help people involved in Self defense shootings, that’s a good thing.
One doesn’t simply holster his gun and ride off with the blonde, you know. ?The aftermath of a shooting can be a legal quagmire, and even if you despise attorneys, you’re going to want a good one in there.

Dave W.


And here is where it starts to go all rodeo real fast:

From: handyone_tjk
Subject: Re: After a self-defense shooting, where do you get legal help?
Newsgroups: gmane.culture.hobbies.guns.concealed
Date: 2008-04-15 18:32:12 GMT (45 weeks, 1 day, 9 hours and 23 minutes ago)

Unlike many people here, I appear to have ACTUALLY read what it says on the website and I posted the requirements in this message:, so I reiterate my reiteration again: BZZZT!

With all due respect, maybe you should contact the principal you know who is involved and ask him/her why open carry and ordinary self defense(Joe Horn???)type people are unworthy to pony up $85.00 for the blessings and benefits of competent(???) legal defense before you engage in a knee jerk rebuttal about people who believe in “conspiracy theories”

It is not a conspiracy to say the NRA is the “oldest gun control organization” in the country. The Congressional Record and their own press releases confirm their kinder gentler gun grabber philosophy.

They differ from the Brady Bunch in degree but not in philosophy.

If you want to get into a food fight about this at least take the time to review the website FAQ.

I used to expect better of Marquee Names in the Gun Writer Community but have learned otherwise in my dotage.

Sheesh I say. Just Sheesh.

And then, of course, the inevitable occurs and boys will be boys and they mix it up pretty good:

From: Dave Workman
Subject: RE: Re: After a self-defense shooting, where do you get legal help?
Newsgroups: gmane.culture.hobbies.guns.concealed
Date: 2008-04-15 21:21:45 GMT (45 weeks, 1 day, 6 hours and 40 minutes ago)

Hmmmm, lemme see now. This is “concealed@…” right? A concealed carry forum.

Now you start throwing open carry in here and talking about Joe Horn, which is quite a different case, or did you not realize that?

Why don’t you contact this group directly and ask these questions? That seems far more sensible than having a fit about this group here on a forum.

Just how did the NRA get brought into this as “the oldest gun control organization in the country?” This
after your opening salvo accuses this bunch of being a “gun grabber dot org in RKBA clothing.”

What is it, anybody you decide to take a disliking to suddenly becomes a gun control organization or something?

And just how does what I do for a living have anything to do with this conversation? At least I’m not hiding my identity behind some e-mail handle.

Dave W.


And here is the crux of the discussion that was skillfully suffocated by all concerned:

From: handyone_tjk
Subject: Re: After a self-defense shooting, where do you get legal help?
Newsgroups: gmane.culture.hobbies.guns.concealed
Date: 2008-04-16 00:04:13 GMT (45 weeks, 1 day, 3 hours and 30 minutes ago)

Let’s see now, the TITLE of this thread is where do you get legal help after a self defense shooting?

And the link therein provided leads to an organization which CALLS ITSELF the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network.

Anyone who explores their website instantly discovers they have no interest in Armed Citizen Self Defense or even Gunowner Citizen Self Defense. Noooo, their interest is in CONCEALED CARRY Citizen self defense which is certainly their right, but have the street savvy to CALL yourself Concealed Carry Legal Defense Network so as not to confuse the peasants in the belief you understand and support RKBA.

You better believe my antenna go up to full extension whenever I see an organization aggressively advance the notion of stratification of RKBA as practiced by both the government and the NRA since the 1930’s.

If you do not show up on their doorstop with the Yellow Star of David visibly sewn to your clothes as prescribed by law, you need not apply.

Well, son of gun, I certainly will not bother to ask questions of this group since they have so clearly advertised their intentions from the get-go. I am guilty until proven innocent and my innocence rests on a piece of government generated paper known as a CCH permit. The process works so well with illegal immigrants driver’s licenses why should it not work with firearms as well?

Feel free to continue this discussion under any email handle of your choice, it will not make a wit of difference to the topic, though it might not confuse me with a body of work which I previously thought
deserved some deference.


The next 50 or so posts appear to be little more than cut-and-paste from Drama Queen Central and any of you who enjoy that type of soap opera are welcome wade through the melee’.

Regardless of the nature of this “discussion” the questions posed are excellent:

Why would an organization call itself Armed Citizen Legal Defense and ostracize two thirds of the RKBA community who believe Concealed Carry Licenses are little more than thinly veiled gun (gunowner) registration certificates?

Alaska and Vermont have no concealed carry license requirements, is everyone in those two states restricted from membership?

And why further contribute to the stratification of a community that is already unaware of serious
internal divisions? (Think Jim Zumbo and Dan Cooper)

Until I know more about Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network, I too will respond with caution to their
purported mission and purpose.

And I would certainly recommend they pick their advocates more carefully…..with friends like Dave Workman they hardly need enemies.

Update 03/06/2010: The Great GMane Concealed Carry Poo Flinging Contest has all but disappeared down the Internet Orwellian Memory Hole.

A terrific loss as it was a case study of how robust debate can be crippled by heavy handed moderators and intemperate celebrity commentators.

Particularly disturbing were the poster Dave Workman’s gratuitous ad hominem assaults even after the hapless dissident was blocked from rebuttal. To the best of my knowledge he has never rescinded the comments or apologized for their tone.

Try these links for as long as they work:

Here are screen shots from the Google cache of the fifty +/- posts.

Click on thumbnails for better view:

I got my copy of the thread, I hope you got yours.

Update #2 03/09/10

Apparently the Rob Pincus Blog Post recommending the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network has also disappeared down the Internet Memory Hole.

I have a copy of the post dated February 17,2009 and Mr. Pincus did in fact say “Although I have only recently gotten to know Marty and Gila other than through reputation, I am quite comfortable recommending their network to readers of this blog.” among other comments.

Sorry, that is the best I can do short of posting the entire blog post, which of course, I would only do with the permission of DRTV and Mr. Pincus.

16 responses to “Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network-Another NRA Style RKBA Trojan Horse????

  1. Unfortunate that the original conversation went the way did…. probably not a lot of value in re-hashing it.

    The organization is pretty open about its intent and its founders are well known in the community. You can find hundreds of their students to testify to their character and nature. They may have done more than any other people in the entire Pacific Northwest to help people become responsibly armed in preparation for defense.

    I used to live in Vermont and continue to find it unfortunate that the citizens have to jump through some extra hoops to take full advatange of their rights to carry a firearm for defense (for example, there is no “reciprocity” if there is not permit in the first place….). But, the fact is that it is probably MUCH easier for someone from Vermont or Alaska to go through a certification course for an out of state permit in another state than it is for someone from New Jersey or much of California to get a permit in their own home state! I would expect that such a process would permit membership for the residents of those states (all 1.2 million of them, total).

    The biggest threat to the RKBA might be those within the community who are more interested in conspiracy theories and internet drama than they are actually building bridges, networking and celebrating the huge swaths of common ground that we all share.

    If anyone has questions about the ACLDN… especially ones they wish to pose publicly, I would suggest emailing them, getting answers in writing and posting what they get back.


  2. Many thanks for your comment.

    As you are no doubt well aware, RKBA is a 360 degree battlefield.

    Sadly, the leading organizations on that battlefield have had nearly a century to distinguish themselves, hammer out a cohesive philosophy,and unite the estimated 60-80 million American Gunowners under their banner.

    Score to date: NRA 4 Million
    NSSF-??? (Far less than the NRA)

    JPFO,GOA,SAF,et. al. even less.

    If a legal defense organization seeks to reintroduce the public to long standing principles of provocative acts or incitement in the fashion of Jerry Spence they certainly deserve support.

    But I would expect such an organization to be transparent with their name.

    The suggestion Armed Citizens Legal Defense should call themselves Licensed Carry Legal Defense is both perceptive and accurate.

    ACLDN is welcome to comment here about their organization.

    Thanks again for all your good work.

    I have a copy of your American Rifleman Valhalla Advanced Pistol Handling on my desk as I type this.

  3. Thank-you for inviting me to comment. Not sure how the Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, LLC. got on your bad side, but I believe you have been misled regarding both our purpose, and the requirements for membership.

    First off, we do not require a Concealed Carry License to be a member. What we do require, is that the person be free of a felony criminal record, and the easiest way to do this is to have a CCL. IN fact, here is what we say on our FAQ page:

    “Q) Can I join the Network if I do not have a state-issued license to carry a concealed handgun?

    A) Most of our members submit a copy of a State-issued license to carry a concealed handgun on file with their membership application. Alternatives include a copy of a Firearms Owner’s Identification Card or pistol permit, or a receipt from a Federally licensed firearms dealer showing delivery of a firearm within the last year (evidence of passing a NICS background check) submitted with a photo copy of other government-issued identification. What ever form it takes, the background check must be on file at the Network offices before we approve any membership application. We continue to study other types of background checks that may be acceptable. Please contact us with your questions.”

    We have had members join who were licensed security guards, EMT’s, teachers, nurses and lawyers join, none of which had a CCL. But, they had an easily verfiable criminal history check for their employment. Even simply having purchased a gun from a Federal Firearms Licensee will suffice our background check requirements.

    I also know that this requirement rankles some folks, but we have weighed the value of membership in the Network and the need to keep convicted criminals out of the Network, agaisnt the slight inconvienence of supplying a criminal history check, and have decided that the trade-off is reasonable. We know not all will accept this reasoning, and we are okay with that.

    We also are not a gun rights lobby, as your headline seems to imply. We will leave (and support) the the fight to the right to keep and bear arms to the Second Amendment Foundation, National Rifle Association, and others.


    Marty Hayes, President
    The Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, LLC.

  4. Mr Hayes,

    Many thanks for your comments and clarifications.

    You are neither on my good side nor bad side.

    The need for an American Gun Liberties Union (AGLU) has long been discussed in many far flung corners of the empire.

    In the Great GMane Concealed Carry Poo Flinging Contest of 2008 one example mentioned wasJoe Horn of Texas.

    You may recall the case. Joe Horn responded to clearly provocative acts and imminent danger in his immediate neighborhood by confronting the perpetrators with a shotgun.

    In a feat of (no doubt unduplicatable) markmanship that would be the envy of combat hardened soldiers and police everywhere he managed to fire three shots and mortally wound two perpetrators- one immediately and one DOA at the local hospital-when they ignored his command to cease and desist.

    While a grand jury eventually no-billed his indictment, there was a long period of time when he was in need of the services of an aggressive legal defense organization.

    As it happened, his choice of lawyer sufficed for his needs.

    I am unsure he would have been eligible for membership in your organization by any of the standards listed in your FAQ.

    While it is certainly your right to choose your clients, it is equally important to understand how (some)others may view your activities.

    I share the perception there is a distinction between an Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network and
    a Government Approved Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

    You may wish to review David Codrea’s “Only Ones Files” for nearly endless examples of heavily vetted and highly trained Government Employees who have been found guilty of crimes including, but not limited to rape, murder and felony child abuse.

    The BTK Killer (a code enforcement officer!!!) springs immediately to mind.

    How many of those people would qualify for membership in your organization before they were convicted? And would you be obligated to defend them in court?

    As for the comparison with the NRA, you were quoted by Mr. Pincus as aspiring to the respect currently accorded the ACLU-an advocacy group with an extensive history.

    I offer, in this opinion piece, the example of an equal and opposite advocacy group-the NRA-with an equally extensive history to help readers determine in which direction your organization may be oriented.

    You may number me in the camp of those who wish to see a Constitutional Carry Network arrive on scene sooner rather than later.

    I wish you and your organization the very best in all your endeavors.

    In Liberty,

    • >Glad the two of you got a chance to “meet”. I learned even more about the ACLDN from that post, Marty.
      >Thanks for the venue, JJH!
      >Glad the two of you got a chance to “meet”. I learned even more about the ACLDN from that post, Marty.

      Many thanks for your efforts to “introduce” us.

      I eagerly await reports of ACLDN adventures in the future.

      Best regards,

  5. Liberals are too ignorant to realize that crinimals are not about to abide by the law their not stopped by rediculous and stupid gun control laws they want us to obey they only make crime worse by disarming the citizens and leaving them open for crinimals LIBERALS ARE IGNORANT MORONS

  6. My name is George Newman I worked for F.N.G.P. Manufacturing in Northfield N.H. for several years, in the first part of January 2009
    I was moved from 2nd shift to third shift as part of a restructuring, not being used to those hours I fell asleep at the wheel of my truck on my way to work and hit a telephone pole, the first officer on scene asked if I had any firearms? at witch point I handed him my carry permit and he took possession of my glock 23. two days later The Northfield police dept. notified my employer that I was on my way to work with a firearm. That night when I arrived at work there were 3 police officers waiting for me (as I have a permit,I still do not understand why they were involved) My employer then terminated me for misconduct for violating there parking lot policy,as a real kick in the ass N.H. Department of Employment Security has denied my benefit because F.N.G.P. Manufacturing Terminated me for misconduct.
    So much for “Live Free Or Die”
    I recently read an article in 1st Freedom magazine About Oklahoma’s parking lot law witch allows employees of any corporation to store legally owned firearms in locked,private motor vehicles in employer parking lots. Can You Tell me how (or Help Me) get the ball rolling to pass a similar common sense law here in N.H. the “Live Free Or Die” state.

    George Newman
    309 Waukeena Lake Rd
    Danbury N.H. 03230

    • Since Mr. Hayes posted here as to the nature and purpose of his organization you may wish to contact him at
      default.html and ask if this case is the type he seeks to litigate.

      New Hampshire in general seems to be a hotbed of 2nd Amendment Activism. I have posted a number of Youtube Videos on this site from Ridley Report.

      You may want to repost your note on one of Dave Ridley’s Ridley Report Youtube Videos as a comment and see if he might help you find the assistance you need.

      In Liberty,

  7. Pingback: Update: Armed Citizen’s Legal Defense Network « John Jacob H’s RKBA Commentary

    • With all due respect, this post is in the Top Twenty most viewed on my humble little blog. Hundreds of people have directly clicked on it.

      WordPress does not distinguish between clicks on “Home Page” which is THE most clicked category (with thousands of views) and individual posts.

      Consequently many posts viewed en masse on “Homepage” do not receive the tally they would otherwise get if viewed individually.

      Add in the popularity rank and a wiggle factor for Homepage views, I would say this post has been viewed at least a couple of thousand times.

      An examination of the Stats page leaves me amazed to note what is most often viewed and what is not.

      In Liberty,

  8. I have a friend who is threatened with losing his gun rights would you e-mail me a phone number that he can speak to your legal department. Thank you!

  9. Just a note to update you on the membership requirements of the ACLDN. They no longer require that you have a concealed carry license. They only required me to attest that “I am not legally prohibited from possessing firearms, that I am 18 years of age or older, and that I legally reside in the United States. I understand that any grant of benefits is limited to lawful acts of self defense with no additional criminal charges (unlawful possession of concealed handgun, for example) associated with the incident.”

    After comparing them with as many of the alternative insurance and/or legal protection plans available that are available specifically for legal defense in a weapon-related self defense case, I chose ACLDN. I don’t have any ties to ACLDN, financial or otherwise, except for the fact that I chose their service and coverage for myself and my wife.

    I think that many in the 2A universe are quick to throw the conspiracy label at anything that they don’t immediately recognize as beneficial or helpful to their definition of the Second Amendment cause. In my opinion this isn’t helpful, to say the least.

    I have subscribed to another self defense legal protection plan that I eventually realized spent an inordinate amount of my subscription fee on spam and junk mail generation. All I want or need is a legal defense plan that will go into effect as soon as I need it and that won’t constantly bombard me with appeals for ever increasing levels of coverage. And while I believe I have found that in ACLDN, I remain open to the possibility that there may be a better alternative. But until I find that better plan, I’m happy with the coverage that ACLDN provides.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s